12 Sept 2023

Mat (00:01.963)

All right. Yeah, okay. So we're recording now, Lester. So we'll get straight into it. So let's start by just discussing a little bit about what's going on with vaping at the moment. I know there are some moves to kind of get rid of all the colourful packaging and Australia's looking to increase taxes. And there's moves towards kind of taking it off the shelves, but maybe it's too little too late. I don't know. It seems to be like...

the tobacco industry is kind of creating some kind of, you know, they always seem to find a way, don't they, to sell to us.

lester (00:37.026)

Well, it's supply and demand isn't it? If people don't want it, you know, people want it. If they don't do that, they'll be doing something else. I think that's one of the things about addiction. It doesn't just go away, it just goes somewhere else if it's not treated. But I think like what you're saying there, it is like a new thing, but I remember.

I can't even remember how long it's been around for now, the vaping, but I know it came out as cigarettes as replacement for nicotin, to take away the harmful effects of tobacco. But when I actually see, I kind of see the idea of it was really sound, I like the idea of the vaping, you can control the nicotine, reduce it, because again I understand the power of nicotine.

and how strong it is. But I think just sort of going a little bit conspiracy for a minute, is that you do sort of realise that, you know, if you look at some of them sort of 50s avatts about nicotine and smoking, you know, it's almost like a healthy thing to do. And even when I was a kid, I'm pretty sure you can't get this anymore, but used to be able to get chocolate cigarettes, little 10 packs of cigarettes, you could pretend to be like your dad.

and even some of them you'd blow them, a big flower would come out and had a red end and you know they had electronic cigarettes that looked like you were smoking as a kid. But as the years have gone on I think they've sort of become clearer that people have become, now imagine this is the conspiracy, again I don't know whether it is, I'm just a bloke, it's just my opinion but what I see from and again somebody that's...

Mat (02:03.707)

Yeah, yeah, I remember those.

lester (02:31.67)

spent most of his life in addiction, in treatment and suffering from it is that they kind of accepted that the tobacco was really harmful for you and give you all kinds of cancers and nasties and there's kind of no getting away from it and then they made it so you can only smoke outside, that sort of thing.

But as that was happening, I guess the tobacco companies, now the back story to them, and you can Google this, I did, that's where I got my information, is that it's probably one of the richest businesses on planet Earth. Because the profit margin on tobacco is like through the roof. It's like a low input and a maximum output kind of product that not only...

lester (03:26.246)

it's very highly addictive. And so even when I was young, one of the punishments that they kind of recommended that if you got caught smoking, would get you to smoke like a whole pack, one after the other, make you ill. But that actually just made you more addicted. And if cigarettes being horrible was a deterrent, you probably wouldn't have smoked the second one.

they were disgusted yet to really push through that bit to smoke and um but as you've seen the so what they've realized is these companies that make just billions i think they make more money than like coke and pepsi and some of them other companies all clumped together so i think as they've acknowledged that look

Mat (04:17.199)

Well, just a...

I just had a little look at the numbers here and the revenue in tobacco products in the world in 2023 is estimated to be £941 billion and £834 billion of that is made up of cigarettes which is an insane amount of money.

lester (04:31.254)

Yeah, quite a lot.

lester (04:35.734)

Yeah, well, I think you'll probably find it's more nicotine. Now that's the thing, the bit that they don't really talk about. They talk about tobacco, but the truth is the world is facing, especially the Western world, is unprecedented decline in people smoking. But the profit margins of nicotine, which is what their product really is, are going through the roof.

lester (05:06.914)

So if you had a business that was sort of two parts, tobacco, you've got to kind of look at this, the tobacco is only the dispenser. You don't really want the tobacco, you kind of want the nicotine. We all tried smoking, you know, nicotine-free tobacco. It's disgusting, there's no point in it. And you know, you don't, people are not interested in that. Not very many anyway. You might get the odd person just likes to...

looked like they got smoke coming out of their mouth, but it's kind of like alcohol-free lager. I don't really see the point in it, but some people like it. But tobacco was the dispenser of the nicotine. The nicotine's the real addictive bit of that, that keeps people hooked and keeps them coming back even. Because again, look, I don't know how many people you know that smoke, Matt, but pretty much everyone I know that smokes don't wanna smoke. I mean...

How many products on earth? Oh man, look, I mean, it's a beautiful business. It's a beautiful business. You buy my product whether you want it or not. There's nothing like it on earth apart from other drugs. But it's an amazing business. So, sticking with the conspiracy theory that I'm presenting at this point, and I'm sure someone's already got a...

Mat (06:04.375)

They all say they're going to quit, especially the people that vape. The vape is always wanting to quit. Oh, this will be the last one. I'll stop it all the time.

Mat (06:25.454)

That's it, isn't it?

lester (06:33.002)

more of a proof of all of this but it just look what it looks like as an observer of addiction that worked in a rehab. I smoked myself from the age of nine stopped at thirty years old five years after I come into recovery and I watch a lot of people smoking as they in through the rehabs as they sort of they start coming off of all their other drugs then nicotine goes through the roof but so you've noticed this to

I always imagine in a boardroom somewhere they've gone, oh, this is looking really bad. It's like, you know, people are noticing that we're actually, our product's killing them. What can we do about it? It's like, you know, I should think if you called in the most coolest, hippest, intelligent business advisor, he'd come in and go, well, the reason they don't want it is because of the harmful elements to it.

Mat (07:28.248)


lester (07:28.738)

So you want to keep the addictive bit in because that's a real unique selling point that keeps them coming back. So we've got to find a way of getting the harmful elements out of it. Hence the vape coming to existence. So pretty quickly, I was having these conversations. They've just invented another addiction. That was because I wouldn't have thought quite then.

They've just changed the dispenser.

they've changed the dispenser because and then they now they've promoted that the dispenser of the drug nicotine

Now I'm not even saying nicotine's a bad drug. I think it kind of saved my life, if I'm honest. I used to think I had panic attacks. I thought I had asthma when I was a kid, but I think it was panic attacks. Initially, like most drugs, I think nicotine calmed me down. It kind of took me down a path I probably didn't want to go down. I think 100% it's a gateway drug, and we get a little bit more into what it actually does in people's brains a little bit further on, but.

But as you've seen all of the cigarette packages start losing all of their glamour, all of the motor racing cars, all of the, you know, the Marlborough man, Died of Cancer and all of that colour and has gone from the smoking and the shutters come down on the, you know, the pictures of people with...

lester (09:08.67)

rotten mouths and lungs and horrible diseases on the packets as they've soured that in this place there's this beautiful shiny colorful strawberry flavor banana flavor product

that's come that's better for you, 90% better for you than smoking. And then all of a sudden we've seen, I mean that's unbelievable for me. You go in some of these shops now, it's like the whole wall to the till is vape juices. They got them, don't know what kind of screen they are, you might know, but they look really cool looking like a bit of out of.

this world kind of pictures of vapes and vaping and juices and it's so attractive and I keep thinking to myself hmm maybe I should vape. What sedatives do you do?

Mat (10:02.614)


Mat (10:10.151)

They look delicious! All the different flavours that you could never get anywhere else. Ice blasts and yeah, all of it. It's ridiculous. It looks like a sweet shop, doesn't it? And they're all at the front. It's weird because like you say, all the cigarettes are now hidden. But all the vapes which have the same drug in are right at the front.

lester (10:23.308)


lester (10:29.498)

Oh, if you could put a camera on and then do a time, what they call it when they, if you time lapse, it would probably be like watching something dying and then something really beautiful emerging from it. And so you're off. Oh, it's.

Mat (10:36.067)

Oh time lapse!

Mat (10:47.987)

Yeah, yeah. From an advertisement perspective, it's genius, isn't it?

lester (10:53.526)

Bloody genius, you'd need billions to come up with some advertising like that.

But not only that, I think you're right mate. I think it is a freaking sweet shop. Because all they gotta do is get that nicotine into them children.

lester (11:11.472)

And again, I think the sad thing is, children were stopping smoking because it was bad for you.

Most children thought you're idiot to smoke. Now, you know, what I tell people, you know, is look, if you get a...

If you get a hundred families where everybody in that family smokes

pretty much all the children are, maybe 10% won't. I don't know if there is a statistic, but maybe 10% won't. You get 100 families that don't smoke, I bet you get probably 10% of them that do. So again, you can't just completely blame the tobacco companies, but again, I don't think we all realize what, how we're all being duped and being fed addiction. Why would the government even let that happen?

lester (12:08.514)

Why would the government even let the children, which is what most of the issues are about at the moment, the amount of children that are vaping, why would the children let these big corporations market to all of the children in our country? I wonder why that is? Oh, sorry, I think I'm still being conspiracy here.

Mat (12:37.287)

Well, I mean, the data is there. NHS did a report from 2001, and they said that 5% of all adults were defined as e-cigarette users. And it also revealed that one in 10, so 10% of 11 to 15-year-olds had vaped. And in 2018, so three years before that, it was just 6%. So there's a 4% increase between 2018 and 2021, which is.

when we've started to see these vape products show up and they're everywhere. And it's only becoming more and more so. So if nothing changes, that number will increase.

lester (13:10.267)

Yeah, why do they call it vaping? They need to call it what it really is. A nicotine dispenser. That's all it is. It's a nicotine dispenser. Tobacco was a nicotine dispenser. Now the vape is a nicotine dispenser.

Mat (13:19.932)


lester (13:32.142)

And again, there's no real science that I'm aware of that says whether it's really good or bad for you. You know, is it better than smoking? Possibly, probably, I don't know. But the bit that I don't think that gets talked about is that nicotine is a very powerful drug. Because like we've already said, most people that are doing it don't want to be doing it. Now why can't they stop?

You know, most things is like you don't like, you stop. And a lot of them try. I don't know if you ever watch people try and I've watched thousands over my life. And what happens to most people, even when they're using the nicotine replacement products, fail often.

It's because it's such a powerful drug. Because, and again, this is the bit I don't think it's talked about. Because even the fact that I don't think them big companies wanna talk about nicotine. They wanna talk about tobacco. Because the nicotine is the real evil, sinister bit to it all. That you're getting people addicted to your product. Which is through the roof business.

And that's the bit that really doesn't get talked about. They go on about the harms of tobacco. It doesn't harm so much. And it's like, yeah, well, what about the addictive qualities of it? And what does that nicotine do in the brain of a child? What does that nicotine do in the brain of an adult? Why does it become so addictive? And why does it become so hard to stop? And the reason it becomes so hard to stop is because

Apart from it being a stimulant, it's also a suppressant.

lester (15:24.482)

So it suppresses emotion.

And that's why when people stop smoking, they often put on weight. That's what happened to me. Because like I say, addiction doesn't just go away. It just transmits to something else or transmutes whatever the right terminology would be. So food's another suppressant of emotion. You know, people that are really overweight, it's because they're trying to change the way they feel mostly. Again, when you're talking about humans, there's no like one thing but...

But basically, you can pretty much get in the ballpark that people wanna suppress the way they feel. But if you're a child and you're just developing your emotions, you need to feel stuff and difficult things. And then you need to speak to people that can help you resolve it and help you develop a healthy nervous system, help you develop a healthy perception of the world, which again.

it can't guarantee that's going to happen that depends what environment you're being brought up in but if you start realizing as I did from pretty young that smoking makes me feel better and when I feel uncomfortable I just reach for a cigarette when I feel hungry I reach for a cigarette when I feel tired I reach for a coffee and a cigarette you know when somebody's gone

Mat (16:52.386)

And having that reliance on the nicotine means that you don't learn those coping mechanisms to deal with those feelings otherwise.

lester (17:00.566)

No, you become dependent on the nicotine and you never develop the natural ability to cope and problem solve and to process your emotions because you start suppressing them. And that's 20 years later when you think, oh, I've got to stop doing this. And then you stop smoking. You've got 20 years of suppressed emotions on their way out.

And not only that, you've never developed the capacity to cope with it. Cause that takes neural network. You know, then that nicotine is actually wiring your children's brain.

lester (17:47.978)

And so when you remove it, the same with all drugs. We call it, there's a bridge to normal living. And that bridge is being, you know, this is why it's so hard to get people completely abstinent because to stop them using chemicals, now what is their brain gonna depend on? And it can be very uncomfortable for them to cross this bridge. But if you can keep them drug free or nicotine free eventually,

the natural process restarts. And if you're in a good environment, that's why I think it's good going to, you know, 12 step groups or recovery groups or having sponsors and people you can talk to. That's kind of what sponsors do. They help you, well, I don't know what to do here. I want to smash them up. I've had enough of, I want to go back. Why do I bother? They can help talk to you and soothe you and comfort you, which helps redevelop your neural pathways. And it takes a good four years.

for most people with addiction to actually start, you know, balancing out a little bit. And then as we go on, you know, like when you've been in recovery for 10 years, you've been through X amount of life, ups and downs. You've kind of redeveloped, you've sort of grown up now, you've matured, things that were problems, you know, we're always saying to people, you know, you've got to face your problems, not because, you know, because we want you to be able to develop with that problem is naturally gonna.

make you stronger, it's going to grow you, it's going to give you ability and then you're going to process and you'll be able to overcome it and then that problem won't be a problem anymore. It's one of the things I'd like to do more podcasts about of what kind of happens to you and why is recovery so hard. Like relationships and that bridge can be very difficult to cross.

at the same time, it's kind of depending on the environment you're in. Is there people there that can give you good guidance, good direction, you know, because then what used to be a problem, you can actually start feeling good about, even like, you know, the challenge of overcoming it and growing. So it really does alter your mind, nicotine, especially in young people. It's like, you know, I ain't got a problem, you know, I watch, you know.

lester (20:10.51)

YouTube them guys around my age you know they're smoking cigars I can't envy them I think I wish I could do that have the odd cigar you know there's nothing wrong with a bit of tobacco I don't think there's anything wrong with having a VA engine if it's like everyone ain't got one or now and then but it's like when you do it too much you know people having a nice little tipple of whiskey or you know even getting a bit drunk there's nothing wrong in that at all for me

I couldn't have a cigar because I think that, I don't know what it is about me, but I've always had very little control over stuff like that. So the only way I can, you know, even like drinking, the only way I can be in control of my drinking is by not doing it. I've had countless vain attempts to sort of drink normally and always end up in a mess. And you know, even like with...

Mat (21:05.103)


lester (21:07.49)

Sorry, bye.

Mat (21:09.275)

I was just going to say this, as a bit of a sort of closing statement on the topic of vaping, is there anything that you might suggest to people, people that are stuck vaping or maybe people with children who they think might be vaping? Are there any ways in which we can stop? I mean, of course there's things, there's elements of recovery and there's things like rehabs and therapies, but what might you suggest to somebody who can't get off a vape?

lester (21:38.558)

Well, I think there is, again, there is smoke in sensation clinics. You know, we have talked to one in Ipswich, they're great people that can really give you a lot of courses and guidance and groups. So I think the first thing like anything, isn't it, is actually admitting that it's a problem, like all addictions is like some, like getting young people in, it ain't a problem. It's like, well, you're not really doing your own work or maybe you're not really being told that.

that you're becoming dependent on a drug and that does have a psychological effect. It's not all, they all just talk about the physical harms. They never talk about the psychological harm and it's probably doing you far more harm than you could imagine. But do your own work. It's like, look, do what you like. It's your life, but it is probably doing you harm and you've got to remember that a vape...

is just a nicotine dispenser. Nicotine is the problem because that's gonna make it very hard for you to stop whether it's in a vape or not. And it does lead to other drugs because once your brain starts tagging on nicotine, as you've realized that chemicals actually solve your problems, then you start on the alcohol.

then the coke comes in, then other things start coming in. So, you know, without a doubt to me, nicotine is definitely a gateway drug. I think you'd find it hard to go find me a drug addict that didn't start smoking first.

Mat (23:16.387)

Yeah, I think you're probably right there. All right. OK, well, thank you for that. Thank you for those words. Yeah, lots to go on there. And it's so true. Yes, we need to start rephrasing it, don't we? It's nicotine that's the issue. Nicotine dispenses, I think that's quite key. It would really help people understand. All right, so have you got some time to go and talk about the NOS and the laughing gas? How are you doing for time? Well, I've just gone half 10 now.

lester (23:19.694)

So there you go.

lester (23:40.894)

Yeah I think we could do a little bit on that. Yeah I got we'll just do 20 minutes I think. Is it half 10 or? Yeah we'll just do 20 minutes. Yeah.

Mat (23:48.1)

Yep, okay.

10-1033 it is now. Yeah.

Alright so Lester you were on the BBC radio the other day talking a little bit about laughing gas and the issues that we're facing there. They're littered around the streets everywhere. I feel like ever since I was, you know, when I was a kid 15 years ago they were there everywhere on all the streets. You know, what's changed? Why are we seeing such an influx of it? Why is it in the news again now?

lester (24:21.494)

Well that's kind of why they call me up because they call me for addiction matters which again I always start on trying to divide it out because I don't know whether it's all addiction. But I got this excerpt where they were actually talking from. It says medical experts and substance abuse charities have condemned the government's decision to criminalise nitrous

lester (24:51.33)

based on evidence and warning that it could push people towards more harmful drugs. In its new anti-social behaviour action published 27 March, the government said it is taking a zero tolerance approach to nitrous oxide to send a clear message to intimidating gangs that hang around high streets and children's parks and litter them with empty canisters.

that they will not get away with this behaviour. I don't know, that sounds like they're having a crack down on littering.

Mat (25:31.253)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does, doesn't it.

lester (25:33.942)

Yeah, I can't help it mate, I think the government are idiots. I'll put that on the table straight away, I ain't got much time for them. I think they're right, I think the medical experts are right. I don't think the government tend to base most decisions on facts, I think they tend to base their decisions on what they think most people want them to do so they get the votes. But again, it's like everything, it's like...

So when you actually start doing a bit of research on it, it's like through time, you do get lots of different sort of drugs. When I was young, it's always alcohol, sprinkling of aerin, some marijuana. Then it went with a lot of us young kids couldn't really get too much access to that. So we went on to the glue. So a lot of us were glue sniffing. Then as time went on, it become ecstasy.

and then I think this is the new kind of thing at the moment. But again, you kind of like, I think you've got to say there's at least two, there's different categories. So you've got the little group of snotty-nosed little herbots who've got nothing better to do than hang around the park.

trying to find ways to keep myself occupied usually ends up being a bit anti-social and you know people my age walking through a crowd of them are always a bit scared even though I was one of them at one point in my life. You know they're just kids being kids. If they weren't doing nitrous oxide would they still be anti-social? 100% they would be.

So it's kind of saying, so stopping them with the laughing gas is going to stop antisocial kids in parks. And I mean, what is wrong with them? Why do they even think that's a thing? It's like, I think the government's more responsible for antisocial behaviour than nitrous oxide because of their terrible policies and the terrible pressure and the little support they seem to give families.

lester (27:46.634)

If you want to know the real reason for antisocial behaviour, with kids hanging around parks, Google ACES, Adverse Childhood Experiences, you'll probably find it's not anything to do with laughing gas. And then you get the kids, or the teenagers, because I think it's more 16 to 24 they're worried about, you get the kids that are going to night clubs.

and festivals that are putting it in blooms.

They're not the same group of people. And then they always do the same with the ecstasy. They throw up all of the people that have died and people that end up in wheelchairs. And it's terrible for them. But statistically, that's a very small percentage. And I don't like promoting any drug, but I do like the facts before I make my decisions. And all the facts aren't in, the same with the vaping. We haven't got all the facts yet, but.

What we do know is, is that, let's have a look at it. You've got, you've got a gas, like all drugs, all drugs usually have a very justified, very helpful to human beings purpose. They use laughing gas in dentists as a painkiller and childbirth and stuff like that. Growing up, we would have seen it, you know, in films, you know.

used in a very funny way that the husband's doing it and everybody's having a breath of the laughing gas. And so I think, you know, putting into perspective, there's probably been 50 deaths from 2000, I think, to till today. And I think most of them have probably been in medical, they're not people doing it out on the streets, not kids in parks falling over. It's probably...

lester (29:45.618)

Again, I don't know the facts completely, but they like presenting the worst case scenarios. And so the bit that they're kind of promoting it as is people are noticing all these little bottles in parks. And they're saying that's also contributing to the anti-social behavior. Obviously we can't deny the bottles in the parks. But erm...

I don't think criminalising it is the right way forward myself. I think it's trying to understand why are they doing it. Is it the cause of antisocial behaviour? Or do we just need to put more bins in parks? Or have some people go around picking up these bottles because the kids that are antisocial don't usually do what you tell them anyways. What makes antisocial in the first place? You kind of notice, I don't know, I hate littering.

It's one of the things I hate, I feel like shouting at people when they're little, but you do see young kids that go and undo a lolly and throw it on the floor. They know it's wrong. They're just trying to be cool, aren't they? And they're trying to rebel, which again, I get that. The, um... So I think the antisocial behaviour, I think that's a different problem altogether. I don't think that's the gas. Is the gas harmful or not?

Mat (30:58.055)

Thank you.

lester (31:13.614)

probably no more than alcohol, probably a lot less than alcohol, probably a lot less than nicotine. You know, when you think how many people get hurt through alcohol and nicotine, there isn't a drug on the earth that comes even close to the arm, they'd call it. Now, most people drink alcohol without any arm.

You get the odd one out of ten who drinks it alcoholically like me, they usually end up in all kinds of problems. You might get another three or four out of ten that drink far too much of it and eventually it has a very adverse effect on their physical being. Even when I was young, people were drunk so much people died in their sleep through sick, through heart attacks.

lester (32:09.07)

And I think it's the same with this. I don't think there's any real evidence to suggest that, you know, the kids going out doing it in night clubs or at festivals, it's doing most of them, it's not doing them any physical harm, mentally again. It may be having an effect on their psychology, but you know, like with most drugs, even heroin, if you only did it now and then, it probably wouldn't have any adverse effect on you.

And so I think the people that are turning up in hospitals, I think it's more possibly an allergy or something's a little bit different about them. Their reaction to it was different. The kid that's doing it 24-7, you know, the extremist. But again, I don't know if there's any evidence that them kids that are going to nightclubs and festivals that just wanna...

I kind of look at it as why would you do this? Why would you take a drug? So I did a little bit of research on what you get from that particular drug and the effects are... because it was like the poppers, I used to snort that more, little bottles you make your heart pop, you get a little rush of... good feelings and...

But what they get from that is a feeling of euphoria, relaxation, calmness and a sense of detachment. See that's the stuff that interests me most. It's like, well why would you want... well we all kind of like that. That's kind of why we use alcohol at weddings and parties and celebrations. Because we want that sense of ease, that sense of well-being, that sense of relaxation.

the anxiety to go, the cares of the world to go for a little bit. And I think that's probably more what we should be looking at as a society is, is the cares of the world at the moment are incredibly high. And again, this is where I say the government's probably more to blame than gas. The governments and the world rulers and the corporations creating such a terrible environment.

lester (34:38.382)

pressurized environment that we're all living in. And I think that, you know, when you create a difficult world, this is just my opinion obviously, but when you create a difficult world for people to live in, where you have very high taxes, you know, you have to work very hard, very long hours, you get very little reward, you know, your bills are going up, the sun's gonna kill you.

We're all going to be doomed. You know, there's diseases, there's pandemics, and you know, your savings are being robbed by the gas companies, the electric companies, and the food companies. Our government's letting everyone stick their hand in our banks and take all our money out, and we're supposed to suppress all that anger and frustration because we know we're all getting shafted.

and then them kids are at home with their parents struggling and feeling bad and you know there's a lot of gloom and doom around. I'm not being... now well in good times people are always saying oh you're a bit pessimistic but now I think it's more realistic because you can always tell how bad a recession was by what's the size of the coin that you're willing to pick up out of your iron hole.

Mat (35:52.615)

Thanks for watching!

lester (36:04.327)

It's love.

Mat (36:04.411)


lester (36:07.378)

I think the world is under so much pressure at the moment that it's like a war. It's like during the 1930s, 1939, 1940s, during the second, any war. One thing that was noticed is that people were probably more moral than sexually. But there was a moral decline because they were so afraid that they wasn't going to live for long. So they just wanted to get a little bit of life.

They just wanted to get a little bit of pleasure in case they died. And so they, they kind of loosened up their, their morals. And, and again, when the Americans come to England, you know, they say they're over sex, overpaid and they're over here. So you've got all of these young girls and all our men are fighting. And then all of a sudden there's these shiny Americans with all of this. I mean, they were rich compared to us. They were having the

best time of prosperity and they left a lot of babies behind which probably wouldn't have happened in any other circumstances not to that quantity and so I think that I think this is more of a hope problem than anything else. I don't think people have got a lot of hope for the future and I think when that happens it creates more people doing things

It's a very quick reward. There's very little input in getting a good feeling through taking a drug. You know, it's I think in a world where there's so much policy, procedure, law, the world becomes very gray. And people looking for color and a bit of life and a bit of joy, I think that they're willing to, and again, even the name of it, laughing gas. I mean, it's even a great name for marketing, innit?

laughing gas. It's always been called that. We all like a laugh. I think the government need to... I think they're a bit soul destroying the government. I don't like the way they approach things. But again, I've found my peace from this world, even though it still can get on top of me through sort of spirituality. I've found a way to get sort of pleasures without so many drugs and that sort of thing.

Mat (38:19.495)

Thank you.

lester (38:34.03)

to look and be kinder, to have a kinder view of what is actually, why are these children in this park? You know, is there enough skateboard facilities for them? Is there enough basketball? Is there enough people in there encouraging them? What are their lives like at home? You know, a lot of the time when you come from...

them sort of areas, there's not a lot of support and you're not getting the natural pleasures which is kind of what you want from kids. You want them to like enjoy playing soccer and football and badminton and tennis and pirates and different games and you know they give them the natural highs otherwise they huddle up in the corner and go for the low problems. I think the government...

mental. I think they need to stop criminalizing everybody because they're our children and find out look why are they doing it. You know kids all want to be a bit rebellious you know it's hard but it's getting to in a world where it's like if somebody falls out of a tree and kills themselves, they want to chop all the trees down. It's like you just make if you've reduced the risk too much

Mat (39:33.236)


Mat (39:39.015)


lester (39:59.906)

you take all the rewards away. Now, I'm not for drugs, but I'm pretty sure most of them kids or teenagers have done pretty good risk assessments and the data that they're getting is saying, look, we understand there's a risk. Like with all medication, eating all food, getting stung by a wasp. We've done the healthy risk assessments, we realize there's...

dangers but we're willing to accept the danger for the pleasure. And again it's like I'm not for that but I think we've got to get good science and look at the world in a bit more of a practical way. I think sometimes I wish everybody would stop but I wish everybody just enjoyed dancing and drinking water and coke and you know playing football and

They had great parents at home and they were supported and loved in the way that makes you kind of healthy and untwisted. But unfortunately that's not a reality that very many people have. I think society, like I say, encourages you to go and look at adverse childhood experiences and see that, you know, if we want to make big changes in our society it's got to be on the mental and emotional level because

Mat (41:09.977)


lester (41:28.034)

The drugs are just a symptom of what's going on inside us as human beings. They've created a shitty world at the minute, mate. I'm not happy with it. I'm 57. I've had 33 years in a spiritual program helping me to cope, and I struggle because I hate being ripped off. And I'm being mugged off and ripped off, and then I see that idiot Michael Gove, oh, we're going to do this and do that. It's like, oh, you're just a pounce, mate.

Mat (41:28.764)


Mat (41:32.231)


Mat (41:40.103)


Mat (41:47.375)


lester (41:58.858)

Why is that geezer even... Why is anyone even listening to him? But honestly... Honestly... I wanna wedgie him. I need to wedgie.

Mat (42:03.819)

Who hired this guy? Yeah, it wasn't it. So really the issue we're seeing with children in parks and the NAS or whatever anti-social behaviour it might be is a bigger systemic problem that comes from

Mat (42:32.143)

parents need more support, these children need to be given another option.

lester (42:34.39)

It's understanding, isn't it? It's just understanding. I might not like it where they're at, but you've got to understand. If you understand, that's what I've learned because I've helped a lot of people in addiction, the same as I was helped. I got help because someone showed me understanding until I understood. And then I made these better decisions for myself. So there's better understanding. They don't seem to understand. That's my point.

It's like they just don't seem to understand. That's what everyone's always saying about them. It's like you don't seem to understand normal, regular people. It's like, because, but again, they're politicians. I guess they're gonna, what they do understand is, how do I get the votes to get voted in again so I can do whatever it is they think I'm doing? Why not be bad people? I don't know what their motives are, but they certainly don't seem to understand. I think that's what these are.

medical experts are trying to show them. It's like you don't understand. And it is true. If you look at a lot of what they do, they often make problems worse.

lester (43:44.83)

they don't understand they need to understand

Mat (43:52.719)

Alright, I think that's all we've got time for, isn't it?

lester (43:53.154)

There you go.


Mat (43:58.537)

but yeah, you're not wrong there.