On this episode of the Altered Attitudes Podcast we are joined by Metin, a father of three and a proud business owner, but this wasn't always this way. Metin has struggled with substance abuse since the age of 13, he went through the cycle of crime, treatment and back to drugs many times before he found lasting recovery. His story is a sobering and inspiring journey through addiction.

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Lester

Well, welcome everybody to our next podcast. We're on a lovely, sunny day in Suffolk. We've got the door open, so hopefully, you can hear the birds and the cows in the background. We've asked my friend, Metin, down today to talk a little bit about recovery we thought we'd try and invite someone down who's been a father through their addiction and a father in recovery.

So, we're going to talk about recovery but also try and find out what it's like to be a father in addiction, somebody that's been through that addiction with their children and into recovery with their children and some of the challenges. I've not really heard much about that sort of stuff, but I think we start of if you can tell us a little bit about maybe your background, your own childhood, and sort of what led you to recovery, a bit about using and that and what that looked like.

Metin

I didn't have too bad a childhood, really. My dad's from Northern Cyprus, so it's a little bit different in that he was quite strict and a bit heavy-handed and whatnot.

Lester

Did you grow up in Cyprus, did you?

Metin

No, we went there quite a lot on trips out there. I grew up in South End, just doing the main normal sort of kid stuff, really. I think I always had that feeling that I was being hard done by.

Lester

Was you being hard done by?

Metin

No, but I always felt like that, and I see that in my kids today, actually.

Lester

When you say I've hard done by, what do you think you, what was different?

Metin

Just not being treated the same as other people and that sort of stuff.

Lester

What was you seeing that they were getting that you weren't getting then?

Metin

I've not trainers, clothes, and the reality was I always got that stuff as well, and quite nice stuff. My parents always went out of their way to provide that, but I'd always see other people with stuff and always be comparing myself a lot. And I suppose because of having a different cultural background.

Lester

Do you think it was a cultural thing?

Metin

I think that probably had a little bit to do with it as well. Yeah, I had quite a good early childhood. It was quite good. I think as I got up to the puberty stage (11s, 12s, 13s), my parents split up, and then all of a sudden, I had a load of free time and sort of free reign.

Lester

So, if they split up, then there must have been lots of arguing and that sort of stuff.

Metin

I think that definitely had some sort of effect, but I also know that as soon as I was aware that I could manipulate that, that had an effect. I latched onto that quite a bit. Poor me.

Lester

I guess then you've got those hard feelings. I think that's the thing. If a child is brought up in that sort of environment, there's a feeling that your parents splitting up can cause a lot of instability which causes a lot of uncomfortable emotions or you know, adverse childhood experiences. And so, you can might be a little bit that way, but I don't think that takes anything away from how traumatic it is. I mean, most people's bad behavior is a response to their environment.

Metin

When I look back on it, my brother and sister are quite functional people compared to how I was. I definitely responded differently. Definitely. I think even from that age of like 11, 12, I was always seeking out the kids who were up to a bit of mischief.

Lester

So, you're sensitive though, I guess. Were you often people that are sensitive?

Metin

Yeah,

Lester

The world affects them probably a little bit more negatively.

Metin

And I think I definitely sought that out as well and just tried to be one of the lads and get involved in all that and anything like adrenaline, I would always get that bit of adrenaline. I'd always be drawn to that.

Lester

Yeah, it's always interesting, though, we talk to a lot of people how they sort of cite an adverse childhood experience, but then it usually follows that then they were more attracted to like the kids that were smoking and slowly sort of heading outside into the margins of society, whatever that triggers in us. It doesn't usually trigger us to be well-behaved or try at school. It seems to drive us to start, for some reason, start feeling more comfortable in the more marginalized behavior. That's common though. That's a funny thing.

Metin

I suppose that was the sort of point I started experimenting with substances.

Lester

How old was that?

Metin

That was about 12 right, just with cigarettes first. Then on to weed, some ecstasy, acid, all of the usual stuff.

Lester

During the Rave period, was that?

Metin

Yeah, doing a bit, but I think even then it was more sort of house parties at that time because I was only sort of 13, 14, when I was experimenting with a lot of that stuff. And I really liked that attention it would give me at the time of doing it as well and the feeling it would give me that I fitted in a bit more.

Lester

So, your Mum and Dad had split up at that time, I guess we couldn't really say that was any real reason why you would do it because I guess everyone did it.

Metin

Yeah, it wasn't because my mum and dad split up. It was like everyone did it, and all my mates were doing it. I think before when my dad left, it was very regimented and quite a lot of discipline in the house.

Lester

So, your mum left?

Metin

No, my dad left, so I were just left with me Mum, and I think she was having a lot of problems at the time.

Lester

Did you get a lot more freedom when your dad left and there was no one to discipline you?

Metin

So when I saw all my mates smoking weed and joyriding, it looked like they were having fun. It must have been a fantastic experience. It was really good fun on one hand, I suppose. And like the house parties, suddenly I got a bit of confidence to talk to girls and all of that stuff. But I think by the time I was 15, I was with a few mates and we might have been 15 or 16, and I started trying harder stuff. That's when the trouble sort of started. I was still at school, doing all right, I was always quite smart at school. I was in the highest sets, but I never really applied myself. I wasn't really interested in school too much. I'd always do all right in the exams but I just wanted to mess about in lessons when I went to school.

That was, by about 16, leaving school and then going on to college. I went and did a business studies course at college and when I look at it now, I was doing this business studies course and learning about customer service and all of this stuff. But I was selling a load of solid at the time, so I sort of incorporated that into it. And then I'm at college and all of a sudden, I've got this thriving little solid business that I was selling a lot of.

Lester

What area was this?

Metin

This was in South End. I think I was doing that for too long. Now I think I got nicked doing that and then that would help fund the other drugs that I'd started experimenting with, which was a lot of heroin at 15 or 16.

Lester

Did you have trouble getting hold of it or did anybody know everyone?

Metin

Well, then it was a little bit difficult to get hold of back then just because it was hard to get hold of. I think a lot of the guys doing it were quite a bit older and they wouldn't sell to you. Everyone sold here and there. There were only a couple who would sell to us.

Lester

There were drug dealers with morals.

Metin

Yeah, one or two of them. I don't know if it was morals or they were probably more worried about getting nicked.

I started experimenting with that and quite quickly, that got a hold of me. I remember being very naive about what it was going to do to me and how it was going to affect me.

Lester

Just trying to help people understand, what would possess a 15-year-old to start crack and heroin? And how did you even know it existed?

Metin

The only reason I knew it existed was because of the guys I was hanging around with. They were quite a bit older than me.

Lester

There is a lesson to be learned here, and I think there's a warning to the wise. If your kids are hanging around with older people, they're probably going to do things that are more advanced than they would normally do at their age.

Metin

I definitely think I missed out on a lot of things by doing that and trying to be too grown-up too quick.

Lester

But again, it's like you're hanging around, wasn't it though?

Metin

I was definitely influenced by that and wanting to be a part of that.

Lester

Addictions, like I say to people, are sort of contagious. If there was no heroin around, you probably wouldn't have it. That's the trouble with the way our society is. I think they let it spread so easily. And the more it spreads, the easier it is to get introduced to it. I think they found that in America, through the opiate crisis, that the addiction spread through the overprescription of opioid painkillers. That kind of tells me that a lot of those people will probably potentially be heroin addicts, but because they never had it...

I look at it like a peanut allergy. If you've got a peanut allergy, you don't know you've got it until you have a peanut. So, if you give heroin to more people, you'd find you'd have a lot more addicts. But not everyone who takes it is going to end up addicted. As you probably know, some of your mates give it up and move on.

Metin

Definitely.

Lester

But some people just seem to be addicted to it pretty quickly. Because I think this, like you've said about your brother or sister, their response to your family was very different from yours. But I should think even if you give your brother and sister drugs, the chances of them becoming addicted like you were would be pretty remote as well.

Metin

Yeah, I'd agree with that,

Lester

There's something different about you.

Metin

Definitely.

Lester

But it doesn't take away the point that if you never got introduced to it, that probably wouldn't have happened.

I find this interesting. In the countries where they execute drug dealers, I think it's based on the theory that they don't understand why drug addiction is like a disease. And if you let it spread, it will get introduced to children. But in those countries, they believe that if they just kill the dealers, it keeps the infection down. Each dealer will spread that disease to a lot of other children and other people. So by killing that one dealer, they may be saving 10, 20, 50, 100 lives.

Metin

It's like I said, it got a grip of me very early. And I think by the time I was 17 or 18 when my parents found out, it was quite funny because I've had quite a lot of headaches with my boy at the minute. I've been chasing him around, and I was talking to my dad about it. He was saying, "You know, I had similar problems with you."

Lester

He wasn't doing no drugs or anything.

Metin

No, he was dead against drugs, he's a sort of grafter.

Lester

How were you funding your habit? And was that all the way up until 18 or...?

Metin

A bit of stealing, a bit of begging, a lot of manipulating of my parents. Like I said, that, "Oh, poor me. I'm like this because my parents split up."

I was really, like, really, really good at manipulating them to give me money.

Lester

Again, we've got to put this out there because what we find out in addiction treatment is that if parents or people feel guilty, they're easily manipulated.

They try to give you stuff or reduce the discipline. They try to be a friend and let you do things they shouldn't be letting you do because of their guilt. Guilty parents can be a bit of a problem, I think.

Metin

Yeah, I can relate to that. I remember being in treatment and having my kids come down to visit me for a weekend. I tried to spoil them and just give them what they wanted and buy them loads of clothes. At the time, I don't think I was that clean. I know I'd still be jittery. I'm not saying they're going to accept it after all that anyway, but I remember saying to them, "Right, you've got five minutes each. Just go and choose whatever you want, but I can't stay in this shop more than five minutes. Just get what you want, and we'll get out of here." I wasn't really too worried about what it was going to cost at the time.

I think by about 18, I had gone to my first treatment center. My parents found out what trouble I was in. I was physically addicted. I think I was in my second year of college. I didn't do a lot of college, but I passed it quite easily. I went back to do the advanced course, and I think I got a grant from the government which went in about two days. A few hundred quid grant was meant to last you the whole term.

It became quite obvious that I had a problem when I found myself constantly begging for money from my family. I was getting into trouble, although I can't remember exactly what for. I'm sure I had some run-ins with the police, probably due to a few driving offenses and whatnot. I've had quite a few of them over the years.

I think at the time I was quite a headache, sorting out my drug use. The drug services were located at the Roxford Hospital and I remember going in there with one of my friends to get on a methadone script. I told them I didn't want to be on it, but I needed something. They suggested attending an NA meeting and I was referred there by my doctor who was part of the local drug services. This was around 1998-1999 and the place was quite rough and ready. I have been to a few of these services recently and noticed a significant improvement in the buildings and resources provided, which is probably due to increased investment.

At the time, my friend and I were probably the youngest to get on the methadone prescription. It was the only option they could offer us. When my dad found out, he was furious and drove me up to London. He got us temporary passports and we flew with him to Cyprus where he detoxed me himself. Looking back, it was a horrendous experience.

Initially, I only smoked drugs but later on, I started injecting them too. I didn't realize how addictive they could be. I also started using crack which resulted in several abscesses on my arms that had to be cut out. Most of the scars are now covered up with tattoos.

I remember being out there and just drinking a lot, detoxing off heroin, but then just replacing it with a lot of alcohol.

Lester

That was acceptable, though. Wasn't it?

Metin

I didn't know about an abstinence-based program at that time. It was just like, take that. I think the doctor might give me a load of sleeping pills and some other pills for stomach cramps, so it was just like eating loads of whatever I could get my hands on. Then I come back to South End after two weeks out there with my dad, and that was probably the most time I'd spent with him in four or five years. And then they arranged for me to go to a treatment center in... where was it? It was down in Cleveland, near Somerset. That was a Christian-based center, I think. I can't remember the name, but it might have been Caleb House.

My mum took me down there, but literally within an hour of landing, I'd gone out and scored. I had no real knowledge around it or anything like that. As soon as I had one, that was it. I just wanted more and more and more. I thought I was over with the physical bit, and now I could just use leisurely. I'll just have a little bit here, a little bit there, and I won't... and that'll be it. And then I won't do it for another week. That was my thought process. So I think I had three days in South End before I went down to Caleb House, and then went down there. But there was quite a lot of freedom down there.

I was really attracted to sneaking around the back and having a cheeky cigarette, and then trying to get a can of beer and having a sneaky beer with the lads, I was the youngest one in there at the time. I think I spent nearly eight weeks down there. Those eight weeks were the longest time I had without heroin and crack. I drank a little bit while I was down there, and got away with it because we just couldn't get hold of enough of it. We had some good times around there with the lads, and I felt a part of it. We even did some nice day trips and whatnot.

I think I got kicked out of there, but I don't think it was like a real program or therapy and all that sort of stuff. It was probably more like a family thing. There were about six to eight of us, a couple of hours we did a bit of chores in the day, bit of cleaning, then a bit of cooking, and we'd go out and have a wander and do some nice things. It was quite enjoyable.

Lester

I remember it wasn't like a program or in therapy and all that sort of stuff. Probably church a bit of church?

Metin

A bit of Bible reading in the morning, which I quite enjoyed. But I don't think that was enough to get that psychic change that it talks about in The Big Book. I got kicked out of there anyway, and I went back to South End. I was always savvy in how to make a pound note. I forged a couple of CVs, I got a job in banking on the fraud department. It lasted about six or seven months with that. I think by the end of that I'd do a couple of hours of really hard work, and then by lunchtime, I'd be back scoring and I'd be half asleep with my head on the keyboard.

Generally, I tried to do well and try to live as everyone else was living. I never paid any bills and always used at night. After that job, I think I went to another treatment center. My mum tried to get me into one in Slough, but I don't think I stayed there more than a day. A couple of years later, I went to another one in Birmingham, which was also Christian-based and free. I only lasted three days there, and it was quite strict with no TV or anything except the Bible to read. They had several furniture shops and did furniture repairing and gardening. It was quite cold there, and I was really ill. I wasn't ready for recovery at that point, so I walked out. I remember rattling really bad. I left and asked my mum to buy me a ticket to go back home to South End. The old thought pattern came back, and I thought I would just have a little bit to take the edge off. It took another two or three years before I got clean and detoxed again.

I must have been 23 by this time and got to a point where the only way I could make any money was to start selling stuff and I was selling quite a bit of crack at the time. I was doing quite well at it but never had no money I just had a really big habit. Just to fund my own habit really and I met my kid's mum at that point she was in active addiction and we were sort of just up to no good also all the petty criminal stuff, and we had the the kids in addiction.

And I rembered just deciding that we're going to stop.

I think I lasted about eight months without using crack cocaine. I put all my focus on drinking, sniffing a bit of cocaine, smoking marijuana, and taking quite a few tablets. Apart from that, I was clean. I remember going into the probation service, and I think they let me off the order early because I hadn't used crack cocaine. At that time, I believed that I was doing well. I even got a little keyring from them saying 'well done.'

But then the day came when I saw that my parnter had a bit of tin foil in her bag, and I went down and found it. I thought to myself, 'If you're doing it, I'm going to do it.' We made a pact to only do it once a month, but that quickly escalated.

Lester

It's astounding how we thought we could control our drug use, even with methadone, alcohol, pills, and marijuana. We still believed that we were in control and that we could stop when we wanted or reduce our drug use. It was a delusional way of thinking.

Metin

I honestly believed it, that you can stop whenever you want. However, all the evidence is contrary to that, even after a few years of trying. I think even through probation, they sent me on a plastering course, and that's helped me because that's what I do.

Lester

It's almost like they've imparted a delusion to a degree because they're trying to help make that work as well in it yeah if you can just stay on these uh prescription substances but manage to drink and smoke and take medication yeah but still function in work yeah get your sign on for your doll money and get your flat yeah for free then it'll look like you're doing good yeah which you might well be but I remember going through that and uh like you say not having someone decides me this and this is this ain't gonna work and like what when you come into 12-step recovery I guess for some people because I guess even like you know that sort of harm minimalization even if it's done very badly which I think it is a lot of the time because I think it's a lot more than just taking methadone there's a lot more sport I guess for some people it definitely does improve the chaotic life yeah some people I guess you must have seen them as well that it kind of was working to a degree yeah and I think for them at times for me it did work but never for maybe three weeks or a month yeah it's like did it work or did it just take you is it just part a cycle you always end up back yeah kind of where you started or a little bit worse sometimes that uh get into that point where I had the the I suppose that that gift of desperation to change and like this and I just can't do this I know I'll do anything just tell me what to do by doing a lot of the prescription stuff it made that last a lot longer well I think that's kind of like you think it does it

Lester:

I think we put something out last week or a week before and I think it was Izzys talk because I think she must have said something about her mum being an enabler and somebody got quite angry like enabling people to keep people alive. On one and they kind of do but they also just drag out a lot of peoples death a lot of people die and again I think we are going to have to do a podcast soon as I found out we are in our 10th year of rising drug deaths its risen every year the last 10 years so that’s kind of interesting but it was very difficult to come down on any side of the argument around that stuff because on one hand yep enablers help keep them alive but a lot of people die who have been enabled and they never get better and in the long run – you get drug addicts that are dying older. And some people It works fantastic and for a lot it doesn’t when you’ve got rising death rates. They say most of them are in treatment but I don’t think they are. In the AA book there was a guy who give up drinking for 30 years I don't know if you remember that story it's in the beginning of the book he says that he decided that he wasn't going to drink again until he'd retired so he decided that he wasn't going to drink for till he retired so he didn't drink something like 30 years now I'm sure they weren't a great 30 years for him but again his whole mind was just about retiring and he said as soon as he retired he pulled out his slippers and pipe and bottle and he was dead within five years but this is a thing he says but he was back where he started but I learned well he weren't back where he started he was dead, that weren't where he started but you know it was um that addiction get you you just you end up back where you started and I think that's what shows a lot of the time if you keep ending up back where you started or it's worse whatever you're doing it ain't working because you get that in real people go you know I did stay clean for like six months I could do it and it's like well it's not the stopping because we can get everyone off drugs in England in two weeks we could get hundred percent of everyone off drugs in two weeks in the country it's not hard to get people off drugs he said that they stay stopped and that's the hard bit even with them controlled harm minimalization programmes of course they work for some people but for some people they don't and some of them end up dead quite a lot of them actually that never get free from that cycle and so you know if you take medication and it brings your life up to a reasonable level that you're okay to live at that level then that's wonderful I'm very happy. But a lot of people like yourself they can get to that place but then it only lasts for a short period of time but you but you're all but it begin rehabs like that as well abstinence is like that you get people coming to rehab they get 28 days three months they've eaten some food they've stopped poisoning themselves they look fantastic and everyone's like oh look how wonderful they look and he's like that's not a good honest picture it's it looks good for now because everybody when you do the family groups even this week I did a family group and the families and spouses and mothers and fathers man they hang on hope like really it's almost like it gives them some relief to believe this is going to finally be it and even though we're laughing it's truly sad because every time they want to believe the lies they want to believe the promises they know in that gut it ain't true but they have nothing else to do except wish and hope that this is it it's over now and I think often and it is sad and then it all comes crashing down again or they're living in fear of it of it all crashing down and again if you've not been on that side of the fence you really don't understand now how hard it is being in a relationship with somebody with an addiction problem. Bad enough for the people in it but but even like being a being a part of it.

Metin:

I definitely relate to that like I think I remember being like about a month clean exactly that putting weight on.

Lester:

Yeah they look fantastic

Metin:

you're doing really well yeah and then someone's saying to me you just look better but you're still a junkie you're still thinking like a certain way still acting and behaving a certain way, still walking down the High Street looking which shop doors ain't locked and things like that and that took a little bit of time to to relieve me of that

Lester:

well there is no mental defense over in it because again like like so you're an 80-90ml probably pocketfuls of valium or something drinking as much as you like smoking joints and yet still that doesn't give you a mental defense for that day when you find a bit of silver paper in a bag your head's gone

Metin:

yeah and I think and after that point I was just battling to get clean for quite a number of years and always really wanting to do it I always describe it. When it comes to the kids I chop my right arm off or my left arm or any arm but you asked me not to use and I had no ability to do that

Lester:

yeah but I mean and for the people that are in in recovery or in addiction they fully understand that but people that aren't they might not make sense to them yeah you know like your dad and they're probably why don't you just stop and realising that you really do want to even on all of them scripts and yeah other things that you're doing you're doing all of that because you don't want to go back to that even with your children of your family trying to build a better life for yourself but still something in you just can't do it

Metin:

yeah and I think when I look at life once we had the kids and I think after the the third one was born about six months old maybe even before

Lester:

how far apart were they?

Metin:

first two are a year and two weeks and then the fifth day and in the the younger ones three years after did you and

Lester:

and gotta ask because I guess it's interesting what made you have a second one because you must have the first one it weren't working for you I guess was it?

Metin:

first come along things weren't too bad we sort of had it under control a little bit and I think it was a

Lester:

so what was you doing then you'd so you would still be on your scripts but you're still on scripts every now and then which is a lot of people reason why people for them that don't know they they like the methadone because you can still use a bit on top because like Subutex so somebody's a bit of a blocker so that it doesn't work so good.

Metin:

yeah I mean when you're on the methadone you don't have to buy quite so much to get the same effect

Lester:

so there was some management harm reduction effect for you yes like you could sort of live a for a period of time yeah and I think I was working at this point as well and uh it wasn't planned the second one uh and I think my daughter was about three months old when she fell pregnant again and uh yeah I remember being I think I'd just started this new job and getting a phone call and I was just like oh like the money and the work that was gonna have to go into doing that and I think I might have been managing it quite well at that point because I'd started this job and I think I was just on a methadone script at that point I said I I did have times where I just stick to that for a little bit uh but it was just never it never lasted for a long period of time.

Lester:

did you think the second child because now you've got a bit of experience do you think you had the same resolves to try and straighten out more as you did with the first one or do you think you'd become more accepting of your situation

Metin:

definitely more accepting probably through lack of sleep and like milk feeds in the night and all that stuff it wasn't really that conscious on my mind at that time I think by that point I was just trying to plod through and get through the day the best I could yeah there's a lot of parents with young kids though yeah

Lester:

and you both got the same habit roughly?

Metin:

yes yeah both hearing crack and alcohol prescription a lot of prescription meds

Lester:

so what would it have been like sort of in your house mostly

Metin:

at that point it wasn't too bad but I mean within a few months it was sort of I'd go to work I'd try and get a sub off the boss I try and work a little bit harder than everyone else so I could then say I'm gonna try 50 quids and I'll say I've got to buy something for the kids there's always some excuse I was very good at finding reasons why I needed a sub uh and then I'd score go home we'll be doing we'd have a bit we'd probably put the kids in the front room in front of the Telly go in the kitchen thinking because they're in the other room it will be all right they won't they won't see us. The kids would come in the room get shouted at to go in the other room so we could do our bits

I think and it's that's probably how it started by the end of that we're just freely using it in front of them going in the bathroom and shooting up.

Lester:

what do you think the atmosphere was like for them?

Metin:

absolutely horrendous when I look back at it I mean I think the I had a time when I went home I think my first home visit a treatment and uh I went to my mum's house because my mum had custody of all three kids by this point and uh I said I'm just going to use a toilet when the kids heard that I was going in the toilet it all started kicking off and screaming and shouting “no don't go in the toilet Daddy” because I'd go in the toilet and I wouldn't come out for an hour and they'd be banging on the door crying open the door dad what are you doing what you're doing not knowing what I'm not giving them attention where I'm so in there just stuck sticking needles in myself

Lester:

Would they have seen that sometimes?

Metin:

yeah yeah they did I think the younger two were probably two and three by this age so yeah they definitely saw. I know I'd say I'd turn my shoulder like that and think I'd be able to hide it but

Lester:

how did they end up? I mean obviously what was the situation for the grandparents to take care of them?

Metin:

I think I was working away a bit and staying away in the week and really I mean that the ex and I were just always up to no good anyway and just be lying to each other both greedy, a lot of arguing a lot of shouting a lot of uh always thinking the other one was having a bit more than each other trying to hide bits of drugs here and there and just I know I was definitely doing a lot of that and thinking that uh I was getting a bad deal on it uh

Lester:

and the kids weren't getting looked after

Metin:

Yeah the kids wern’t getting looked after very well they always externally they always had most stuff we were quite good thieves so we provided quite a bit uh but like on the emotional side of stuff uh neither of us had it about that to give them really

Lester:

with all the drugs and everything you're dealing with did you know that you were not doing like good by them or did you have any feelings of guilt or could you see that then when you're in it like that?

Metin:

not really when I was in it I wasn't that aware of it I was very and I suppose at the time you know like they say uh one of the defects of blaming others I was very aware that uh I would blame her for doing it and not take any responsibility in myself I'm out working or bringing the money in so I should be able to just be left alone and going like take enough drugs to get me to that point of oblivion and uh I think like what you were saying we had uh she had her family I had my family and they helped and held it together for us that supported us to do a lot of that to last as long as we did with the kids to be honest before they went and then as the relationship between me and her broke down uh she couldn't cope and uh she wasn't coping too well and it got to the point I suppose a lot of it was me like well she's got the kids now I'm free to go and do whatever I want to do and then her find everything well why is he able to do it and not me there was so much dysfunction

Lester:

I guess when you're in full-blown addiction it's not a lot of time for kids in there looking after them and yeah and I think most of them says odd enough about that yeah monkey on your back

Metin:

yeah just trying to work out how we're going to get our drugs every day was a big enough battle and uh and then my mum got on

Lester:

so you'd fallen off the scripts and that but I don't know you

Metin: I think I was nearly the whole time through me addiction I was always on a script

Lester:

but It weren't holding you?

Metin:

but I would just go and it was more like a maintenance script uh and I'd use on top and I'd fiddle samples and all of them things

Lester:

your life still become completely unmanageable?

Metin:

yes definitely and uh thank goodness my mum got the kids at the time

Lester:

did she just take them or was it social services or?

Metin:

I think she I think me ex-handed him over to her it's hard to remember the exact form of events because it was quite I was quite out of it at the time yeah but uh I think she handed him over there I mean mum might not have went to social services so she didn't have to give them back

Lester:

so it was like all three kids had gone to your to your mums you split up with the yeah your partner in youre off?

Metin:

yeah and I was uh I can't even remember where I was living at the time I was sort of there There and Everywhere traveling around working a bit come back in a whirlwind of chaos

Lester:

because they're at your mum so you just see him when you

Metin:

yeah sometimes just turn up there obviously being as the way I was it just getting really excitable and then leave again with my mum to pick up the pieces and I think I remember when they went with me mum as well they're just always cling into her leg like that abandonment stuff was very uh relevant from like the get-go

Lester:

did you have any like feelings and then of sort of guilt or regret or?

Metin:

yeah I did but a lot of them was overpowered by the drugs

Lester:

yeah that's the thing the drugs themselves

Metin:

they just numbing yeah and I remember telling myself all the time I'm gonna be more calm around them if I can just take this this and this if I get that light chemical balance of mixing this with that and a little bit of this I'll be able to just sail through the day fairly smoothly

Lester:

so then what kind of got you into recovery what was the event that?

Metin:

I got uh I think I was in the homeless Center in SouthEnd where it got to that point where I just couldn't work no more yeah and everyone had just had enough of me basically just sponging and poncing and uh and I was in there and I think I always wanted to be good and do do the right but I just uh just keep using drugs in there for the whole time I was in the wethouse I think it was meant you're only meant to be in there for three months and I think they let me staying there for six.

Lester:

uh wethouse means you can drink drink and use in there

Metin:

I don't know if you could drink and use in there but you could drink and use and still go back there drunk or yeah and still as long as you back by a certain curfew and yeah they did have quite a few rules there uh but I think I still ended up with blood poisoning from injecting and getting quite ill with that and in hospital and uh I think you took to that point before a few different of the services got together and uh said listen yeah we'll offer you a bit of treatment you can go to the rehab and I remember at the time that they give me a list and looking at the pictures and one had tennis courts so I'm gonna go to that one but luckily they recommended the one I went to which was East Coast and uh I went I think I went to the detox first uh a place called Greg house in limehouse/poplar way and I'd been there once or twice before and done the same detox and it I just get the same results but not being able to put uh I'll go and do a detox for a week or two and I'll come out and still try and use just for the just one more and not realising where that would end up I think it was only sort of I know it talks about in a big book about sometimes being debunkt and uh it was only when I got to that point and had the right people around me and the right supporting guys who have been through it and having that a bit of experience shown to me that maybe if you pick up you're gonna you're gonna end up in the same situation again yeah that really helped

Lester:

it's like that's smashing that delusion there that we can you know like use safely again or control it somehow yeah and just one wont hurt sort of idea yeah

Metin:

and I think I've gone on for probably 16 17 years with that just one more next week I'll stop all of them things and uh I suppose that's when I started to get better in there I'm gonna come to treatment up in in lowestoft and it slowly started building a relationship with kids and they were coming up while I was in treatment visiting every couple of months and then uh I moved out of the treatment center and got a little house just up the road and uh and they were coming up like once a month uh but it got to the point where things were pretty good like I had the house I had a little van and uh I remember saying it I think

Lester:

how long was that that was you along with you around here for?

MEtin:

I think it was about three years

Lester:

yeah so I mean you put uh you're in treatment for like what nine months nine months yeah and then the rest of the time sort of involved but in the community yeah and that's a good group of people around me yeah I laid a few Roots down uh but I said my kids were back in Southend and I remember having a conversation with you and I think it's about time you go back I'll be at that two kids because I couldn't but be that guy in their life that they needed and uh I think it was about a few days later I literally just packed the van up and uh was flying back to Southend and I just thinking I thought my sister put me up on her sofa and uh we managed to get get into hers and she put me up and then like within a day or two I'd have found a couple of jobs and I'd sort of been backed to SouthEnd various times at the little home week visits here and there and try to make some financial men's and do a bit of free work for people where I sort of I would amends that needed doing so there's a few guys there were willing to give me a bit of work and uh and I feel like that even got down there in like the first few months six months down here I don't feel I've done any meetings or anything but was on the phone still had quite a good support network up this way uh I remember being at work and like just life stressed so I was sort of like felt right in it back then when I got back to Southend of uh I see a few old mates who lived down the same road and was always seeing watching about scoring a net and I thought I need I need to start doing meetings again and get back into that uh it sort of when we sort of social life down there come alive again as well yeah and uh I think I've got a flat opposite where the kids lived as well opposite me mum's house they let me rent off them and uh slowly started building a relationship with the kids I mean it's when I met

Lester:

how old were they now?

Metin:

Must have been about the oldest must have been 11 or 12. maybe 12 or 13. uh and they were coming to stay

Lester:

so what was it what was it like for you thought now you'd sort of sorry we're trying to be a dad again I mean how are they were they I would I towards you did they sort of see you how did you think they see you as a father?

Metin:

I think at first they were just really happy to have me there and then like uh I don't like it definitely not being told what to do rules boundaries all of that stuff

Lester:

Did you have to go in as a friend or how did you sort of work

Metin:

I went in probably like a ball in a china shop and just like this is what this is what's happening uh I think there was like a couple of points where my mama got ill and then the kids were playing up so I just sort of go in there a sort of like a drill sergeant do this do that uh but I'd say I mean especially the beginning when I was down there I'd be doing quite a lot of stuff with them and seeing them on a daily basis. Yeah buying motorbikes to take the motor crossing paddle balls to take them out on the water and nice things like that and I suppose it was when lockdown happened really mum as they were getting older the behaviors they started getting a little bit naughtier and she's getting older so it was really good that I was down there making that effort to do that because there's still kids

Lester:

I guess about a pretty tough style in life and yeah I generally don't start lots of all coming out until they get into their teens does it

Metin:

yeah so it was the two boys come and live with us first just as Lockdown happened really I remember I just I've been dating

Lester:

because you've got a house

Metin:

I think we was in a flat at this point yeah and uh obviously been in a relationship with me part of me now fiance and uh I was like ah the kids are going to come stay we might remember the fear like the kids are going to come stay with us but am I going to work I can't do it on my own and uh and she was just like nah don't worry I'll be here and she sort of was staying there anyway we're like yeah we'll just make it work and uh we just sort of muddled through winging it and trying to I know it's been quite a battle of trying to instill boundaries and restrictions on telephones computers time limits to be in all of them things that uh

Lester:

That’s me cockerel in the background we have to ignore him

Metin:

yeah so trying to instill all that stuff and then uh obviously there's four of us in a little two bed flat so there weren't no space but it was to be honest I sort of really enjoyed look down at that point I had the kids back with me the two boys anyway bought a few paddle boards so we could just go out and go out down on the water we was quite close to the beach as well so it was nice to get out I don't mean at that point it was only I think like at the beginning he's only allowed an hour exercise or some I can't remember what the exact rules were but we was out running along the seafront a lot with the boys just trying to wear them out a little bit to be honest uh we had some great times it was ended up being quite a few of us getting together and going out and doing stuff

Lester:

yeah those flyover people in recovery index I think you so starting a bit more active in there than you would do yeah and it's the people out and about and doing stuff

MEtin:

and meeting up with a few friends and there's about six seven or so like on a Friday night when the restrictions lifted a little bit we'd all go down there and take everyone take the kids down in go and go out on the paddle boards for a bit get back and then have a little barbecue in the car park it was like it was really nice a really nice time and built up some really good friendships there as well and uh slowly started got to the point it was like I need something I need a bigger property and then uh I think we probably had a few conversations about saving because I was earning pretty well but I was really bad at saving any money and just wasting it and uh slowly started saving and whatnot and then me and the misses she had a bit of savings and we put it together and then went through that process of buying a property and doing it up

Lester:

sorry about that didn't have a little break and go and shut their cockroach and give him some corn keep him at me in the right I might saw you were just saying about you getting together to get a house I think it was there was we yes

Metin:

yeah I'm glad you remembered I'd forgotten where I was at where I was at uh yeah so we got together and we uh got a deposit together and then bought this old house that needed a lot of work to it which was uh it was nice because it's quite near where the boys were going to school I remember one day to come and one day it was there demolishing the kitchen and look wondering boys come past with all these mates and uh it was all oh can we come in and help and I was just like I had a line of school kids and I was just handing out gloves and all that sledgehammers and they like they loved it just smashing the kitchen up and uh there's quite a few guys in the fellowship that helped me out with that as well which was really nice yeah got together do a bit of work for an hour or two and then sit down and talk a bit of recovery and go through the book a bit maybe and things like that and uh yeah I remember getting there feeling like it was never going to happen like it was just taking so long yeah and like having hold ups with kitchens and worktops and all of them sort of things uh but it was so nice when we when we got here and not everything was done nice and uh I remember having that moment as you're like I've realised the kids had all three of the kids I didn't live with me for 10 years and then coming down and having them all at a breakfast bar that I'd built yeah

Lester:

how long did that take to get to that point in recovery

Metin:

I think that was about five or six years not a lot of work yeah a lot of work yeah and it was nice I mean but it's life in it like an hour later a very nap that moment of light the kids are back and they're just sitting there eating breakfast and they're kicking footballs at the windows and all that piece of my stuff had gone again and I thought dismantling it again yeah and it's like uh I suppose it's been a big sort of learning curve about about life really and relationships with myself and the kids and the misses and all of that stuff and

Lester:

because I guess you dreamed about that I mean that's kind of what he was always trying to achieve but I guess through sort of addiction it never allowed you to give you the chance to do that and then recoveries kind of give you the chance back so that was the dream and that's what I found myself that you get a moment like that where you feel like I'm actually living in the the dream but obviously in the dream it's perfect with no problems which is not really a reality but but it's nice to make it to that point and it sort of makes it all worthwhile anyway

Metin:

yeah and I think it's been really really good

Lester:

it's not easy recovery is it no life's not easy but certainly it's not easy especially the absterdance recovery which you ended up choosing it's not an easy path to go down either it's a it just seems like it's more sustainable for some people

Metin:

yeah well I know if I hadn't gone down that path I definitely wouldn't be sat here doing what I'm doing now

Lester:

what do you think the alternative would be if you'd have stayed on the even if you did manage to keep it balanced out

Metin:

I think probably just set into jail really jail or a site called I'd had times where I've been in I've been that section and whatnot and uh as soon as that and I think a lot of that is the the heavy crack use and in the sleep deprivation mixed together just sends you a bit doolally where it sent me a little bit of doolally uh

Lester:

so as I guess even on the script it's still binging and it's just become a binger rather than a daily yeah but that's just as dangerous I think I think binge might even get it with the binge drinkers where they don't drink then they have a binge and then they stop again and then they binge of it it's a very dangerous way of doing it I mean it's doing it every day is dangerous but I think binging

Metin:

yeah because I think I had the everyday use but like a few days through the week my use would be really low so I'd have just enough not to get ill and then through it while why that was going on I sort of function a little bit enough to go and make some money somehow and then get a bit of money and then I'd have two or three days where I did it really hard

Lester:

so I mean that but it can cause overdose I think as well

Metin:

yeah yeah I think I had quite a few times where partners and friends overdosed in front of us and then you like bring the ambulances up and all of that chaos lucky none of them ever actually died in front of me at that point I've had quite a few mates die from overdose so just not why I've been there or but I always remember having that really uh twisted perception of if someone's overdose the gear must have been really good I want some of that stuff

Lester:

yeah so much for people to believe that's the fact but it is isn't it yeah or even people to get bought around from overdose with the trying to think of the name I can't think enough you know I can yeah they wake up angry yeah yeah it's unbelievable but it's a drug addiction in it

Metin:

yeah and I don't I don't really remember overdosing to the fact that I needed an ambulance called I'm pretty sure my mum had said she'd found me passed out with needles hanging out in the arms and that and uh even her just waking me up I had the UMP yeah

Lester:

so long you've been in recovery now

Metin:

uh it'd be eight years in July

Lester:

so where are you at now uh today?

Metin:

it's always very stressful very stressful at the minute uh because kids yeah and then trying to run a business I've got my own business that I've uh set up it's doing quite well they're trying to work and provide getting married getting married holidays like life when I look at the big picture of it it's actually I'm really blessed with that uh I've got quite a lot going for us and worked hard enough and suffered a bit early I always remember being told that I uh I think it was you yourself you said it but it's like the bow and arrow the further you go back into the pain when you release you fly further into the freedom and uh I think that's sort of discipline myself especially with work stuff and I've worked really hard and save and then later on you started to reap the rewards uh probably a bit of a workaholic at times and probably do quite a few at least once or twice a week work a few too many hours but it's been quite successful in doing that and it's giving us the ability it's given me the ability to now be able to pay for weddings and take the kids on holiday in a few in a couple of months and nice things like that

Lester:

but I guess and again say as much a little about this is King so um you know sort of current a lot of it but I think that is difficult I know it's for people like yourself that getting recovery you know like say lifestyle for everybody especially at the minute all that's been going on in the world and there's a lot so if not good things happening on lots of different levels for a lot of people but I think people can not always realise that that your children were born in a very dysfunctional unhealthy environment and even though they had your mum to take care of them that's still a real broken omen and then when he comes back to now that that stuff starts coming out of them again it's and then it makes it uh difficult even more difficult

Metin:

yeah and I think like they all got where there is under me mum's care and it went to court and all of that so she's like uh I've got parental responsibility

Lester:

do you think sorry sorry about it I'm just thinking do you think people actually realised that what's the chances of them children growing up without some sort of emotional problems I don't think that's really taken into account is it that

Metin:

yeah and I think each of them will have that in different

Lester:

but again if they didn't allow you to think just because of that yeah whatever they're showing any signs or not they have some sort of therapy or yeah you know something to to say look the chances are you're gonna have some difficulties because of your early life they think that um there's a society would kind of say look you just can't just wait and see what's gonna happen it is stuff you can do

to uh to maybe alleviate some of that distress rather than wait until they get to teen years where they start going down them paths yeah himself

Metin:

well I know when they had a bit of help when they were got a bit of funding for counseling at school and whatnot yeah because the behaviour problems will just I think because of their being under social services and whatnot well so they've got a bit of uh I think each School gets a certain amount of funding for each child so they did get a bit of counselling but the only results I really remember hearing or that the only results I can remember from that time I can't remember if I was using it that time I think I was still in the active addiction at this point when I was getting that was the uh as soon as myself or their mum was mentioned that completely shut down and they're going like to start throwing stuff at windows and things like that couldn't emotionally comprehend what was going on and what had gone on and and them sorts of things which I think is probably quite a normal response for a child whose brain isn't developed yet yeah and uh like you're saying I'm slowly seeing it coming out in a couple of them now in different forms in different in each of them really

Lester:

yeah well again I think it kind of also exposed them to a better environment in there recent more recent years which is can really be a big help

Metin:

yeah and I think like the at the minute I'm starting to take one of them to work with me he's not doing too well in the school system uh he's very very savvy and very smart but not very academic in that way of wanting to sit in classrooms and whatnot so I think I'm quite lucky that I work out on building sites and I can take him with me if you need if need be but the the process of trying to discipline them I suppose would be the word and put the boundaries in they get to a certain age where that sort of thing

Lester:

if they haven't had all that in their life it can it seems enough for people in it yeah definitely but it must be nice that you've had an opportunity to sort of build a bit of a relationship with them over the last eight years

Metin:

yeah it's been really nice and we've had some really good times together and it's like what's to say uh the recovery saying you just get a better class of problems

Lester:

and again not enough to answer but I'm just thinking as well how's the mum doing these days

Metin:

I haven't actually seen a word from her in a little while I think I heard I don't know maybe six months ago that they was the she said she was doing better

Lester:

They don’t see her then?

Metin:

no they don't they haven't seen her in a few years now I think they might have spoke to a Christmas time maybe a year and a half ago not this Christmas just gone maybe the one before I think they spoke to her so we've still got addiction really affecting their lives as well was running managed the broken promises I suppose and I can hear it you know like saying oh get me money on this day I'm going to send you a presents and etc etc good intention and probably believes it and means when she's saying it

Lester:

any people addicted to drugs out there you should be banned from good Intentions yeah yes yeah because then it's just let him down again yeah

Metin:

and now like I'm not sure if they want to talk to her or not no no it makes it worse doesn't it yeah better off not promising anything yeah and I've got diet tried to get her into meetings and and that sort of stuff and explained a bit about what I've done and what I've had to do to get to where I am and uh there is another way out I suppose yeah there's certain things you have to do and sacrifice to get to that point and uh certain suggestions you have to take that's about to be the word I suppose

Lester:

yeah like I said it's not an easy Journey but it's possible and I think yeah if you're willing or able to make the effort and put the work in and do what's necessary

Metin:

yeah and I think from what I gather this is so much uh you know so many like antipsychotics and strong medications and uh I doubt half of it really goes in what I'm even saying sometimes

Lester:

yeah don't get me started on that one again I was saying about left and sort of blocks you off doesn't it yeah some of them natural motivators that you need of feeling a bit guilty and a bit shameful it kind of gets knocked out you just numb to it and you don't even like realise dreams

Metin:

don't even understand any of it and I think that was very uh really become aware of that when I stopped taking it and went through the detox process and then suddenly like when I heard what these people were saying but I'd heard probably the same stuff for a little bit of time none of it made sense before but then once it like I've got that substance out of my body it all started making a little bit of sense

Lester:

yeah well I don't know whether people really consider that you know I think from what I've observed over the years through my own experience in working with a lot of people is certain drugs really block your capacity to have a consciousness at a level that you kind of need yes to overcome addiction and so if that's being numbed out by the drugs you're kind of stuck yeah because as long as you're taking them drugs you're sort of stuck there because you're not going to have the mental capacity to decide to make better choices and I think that's sometimes where rehab really comes into its own in the longer term which again most people ain't getting anymore yeah because it just gives you a chance to clear your head to give you the capacity to make them decisions you know which is why we sort of use the term powerless and that you're powerless to make the right choice um so so keeping people on even someone in medications is like they're being consigned to a life of addiction because they're while they're on them drugs they're never going to have the capacity to not be on them drugs yeah it sounds like an obvious thing to say but I honestly don't think a lot of people understand that it's like so you can see with certain medications that he's like it's dumbed down so much that how are they ever going to make a decision to not be a drug addict yeah it's just not going to happen not wider on that medication and I know that uh people that are anti-abstinece and really don't like that because but but it's true I think it's absolutely true I think there needs to be more research in it and again it would even be nice that that there'd be a bit more research on what medications are safe

Metin:

yeah definitely

Lester:

for people with addiction to take because you know mind altering drugs whether they're bought from a dealer or given by a doctor they're mind altering which means your mind's altered that's not who you are and that's the danger of it that you need your mind because uh you know and you need to you need that desire to want to overcome and get on as you know yeah how many times did you think in the last eight years you thought this is too much yeah I can't do this it's like I can't do this this life is too much you know you can see why a lot of people opt for staying away from everybody getting a little flat somewhere and yeah and then because their brains are not functioning properly and it takes a bit of time to redevelop it and I think like you're rightly you said being around a group of good people and being part of that group of good people that you're part of someone else's group yeah that but that really is a success big part of the recipe for success in it being around people that are there to support you

Metin:

yeah and I think people are waiting for the same yeah wanting the same outcome don't want to go back to that old lifestyle and having uh there was a group of us lads who went on a few holidays all together and all supported each other through that if anyone was going sometimes we're getting to be out and by the swimming pool and get out and start reading the big book and nice things like that yeah some Adventures on quad bikes and all all stuff that I would have liked to have done through my 20s yeah but couldn't get to do because of addiction I was quite lucky that there was some other Lads going through the same sort of stuff and we got out and done that

Lester:

yeah because it's not just living your life it's doing your recovery in it and I think when your recovery has got some value because it's hard fought for and hard earned yeah it means something and then I think when the times are tough you don't just go on and giving it up easy yeah definitely it's too valuable because I know that it's the glue that holds my life together you know I always like to do this thing when I got a white ball to say look I do like a tower and at the bottom I'll do a little slice and say two percent and 98% is the top bit the two percent is your recovery and the 98% rests on to two percent and I think you know unfortunately I think some people can spend 98% of their time on the two percent which ain't good yeah and then only two percent on the 98% but even though recovery is only a small part of your life it's very important because the rest of your life depends on it and I think once you get that value to do in recovery and the things you have to do to maintain it then I think you can get to enjoy but also uh deal with the other 98% because because like you rightly said is the fantasy is it's all great but the reality is it's pretty tough y

Metin:

yeah it's hard work a lot of it did sometimes just dealing with other people yeah kids and family members and all that is uh it's really difficult trying to do it from a calm

Lester:

but if you didn't have the nice house the job that misses the holidays I think it's the good stuff that really helps yeah make it worthwhile all the difficult stuff I think if people lose the good stuff which I do see where they've not really they've just got a lot of hard stuff they're not they're in recovery their brain is still not firing right they're not fairly good group of people to get involved with yeah and they're kind of stuck in a very difficult experience it's easy to give in when you're like that yeah gotta have good stuff you go around some good stuff in recovery to make it work

Metin:

yeah and I think like you're saying about working hard for that good stuff it's been a battle to get a lot of it and then trying to be the other thing is being content with it I'm not looking at next doors house it's a little bit bigger or get just had a loft conversion and things like that and if you get into that I'm at that point where okay there's a few more bits I want to do but I've got a time scan in which to do them and slowly putting the steps into doing it yeah bit by bit I suppose they're not rushing you know not expecting too much at once no I think that's been very relevant in my life in that especially with like uh waiting for the family to recover and uh like family members to start forgiving me straight away just because I look a bit better they've been washing and got some clean clothes on and that sometimes some of that stuff's taking like three four five years

Lester:

and I think they start seeing that you're kind of giving a bit your true contributing something instead of yeah poncing off them all the time yeah I think that really helps when you're the one giving them stuff rather than keep taking it all the time I think that's a good little tip in recovery that you're giving back I think that's like step nine in it that you make the means you start well I'll call it created for men's we sort of realise what you're taken from them even the kids you know how many Christmases did they you know weren't that great how many holidays did they miss how many days out how many times did was there no one there telling them that they loved them or they're valuable you're important to me or even showing that yeah you know by turning up and you know doing all that good stuff if you make a list of what you what they lost they're trying to put all of that back not out of guilt but just because it's like if you took something you need to give it back and sometimes you have to give a little bit more because there's a big hole and I think that becomes kind of the fun part of recovery as well didn't it yeah you know giving back what you took from them and some I'm not taking them on a nice holidays and yeah you know having a nice days out and experiences and

Metin:

and I think where I'm quite active as well and especially with the boys it's quite easy to do and quite enjoyable to go and do some adventurous sports and nice things like that yeah I think I've got my stag-do coming up soon in uh both the boys are coming surfing cliff jumping bouldering that's great yeah some of that stuff I think we've got combat archery doing some of that as well so I think they're

Lester:

sea kayaking is pretty good

Metin:

and all yeah I think we've got that booked as well we've got quite a few different activities booked yeah that uh I know they're gonna love although I'm gonna love it as well yeah so it's having some life

Lester:

yeah all right mate and I think that sort of brings us to the end but uh appreciate you coming down mate thank you very much for for sharing I'm sure there's a lot more in there and a lot more questions um a nice pretty delicate stuff but thanks anyway mate appreciate it good luck with your wedding

Metin:

thanks Lester thank you